|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 15, 2023 23:15:04 GMT
Turkey haven’t qualified. They have. If we beat Armenia and then beat Turkey, and Croatia also win their last two, it goes to a 3 way head-to-head as we'll all be tied on 16 points, which would look like this; Cymru 7 pts Turkey 6 pts Croatia 4 pts If Croatia don't win both games they can't overtake Turkey, and if we don't win both games we can't overtake Turkey either, so there's no scenario in which Turkey can be overtaken by both us and Croatia now |
|
|
|
Post by fourfourtwo on Oct 15, 2023 23:16:04 GMT
Stunning, especially giving that we were missing Ramsey and Johnson. If we get the job done in Armenia anything is possible but I fancy us in a play off if it comes to that. Actually I think Ramsey missing was a blessing in disguise. Had he been available, Page would have played him, and our midfield dynamic would have altered. But having said that, full credit to the lads, who went out there and did the business. Let's not slip up out in Armenia.🤞 |
|
|
|
Post by rossyjones on Oct 15, 2023 23:42:42 GMT
Slam that right up your pipe Croatia! Credit where it's due, this was Robert Page's finest hour (so far)
|
|
|
|
Post by hal on Oct 16, 2023 7:22:19 GMT
Turkey haven’t qualified. They have. If we beat Armenia and then beat Turkey, and Croatia also win their last two, it goes to a 3 way head-to-head as we'll all be tied on 16 points, which would look like this; Cymru 7 pts Turkey 6 pts Croatia 4 pts If Croatia don't win both games they can't overtake Turkey, and if we don't win both games we can't overtake Turkey either, so there's no scenario in which Turkey can be overtaken by both us and Croatia now Will that mean we will finish top if we only beat Turkey by 1 goal? Or will Turkeys superior H2H against us (on GD) be enough for them to finish top? |
|
|
|
Post by pclaude on Oct 16, 2023 7:40:44 GMT
They have. If we beat Armenia and then beat Turkey, and Croatia also win their last two, it goes to a 3 way head-to-head as we'll all be tied on 16 points, which would look like this; Cymru 7 pts Turkey 6 pts Croatia 4 pts If Croatia don't win both games they can't overtake Turkey, and if we don't win both games we can't overtake Turkey either, so there's no scenario in which Turkey can be overtaken by both us and Croatia now Will that mean we will finish top if we only beat Turkey by 1 goal? Or will Turkeys superior H2H against us (on GD) be enough for them to finish top? Yes, we would finish top. Unless Croatia drop points in their last two games, we cant finish second. |
|
|
|
Post by janglingjack on Oct 16, 2023 7:54:01 GMT
Taking nothing away from a great win i think we can consign a once great Croatian team to history,not at all certain they will win the two games they have left.
|
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 16, 2023 8:04:52 GMT
Yep it's likely top or third for us, a strange position to be in for sure! What's also strange is Page seems set to outlast Turkey's and Croatia's managers who started the campaign if we get the next results - it's been a really bizarre group but again it seems like we've been placed in the group of death as we normally are. Not much between the sides
Latvia & Armenia have put up good fights against us, and as a top 3 we've all taken points off one another
|
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 16, 2023 8:05:42 GMT
Taking nothing away from a great win i think we can consign a once great Croatian team to history,not at all certain they will win the two games they have left. If they get a few of their forwards back fit they will have more cutting edge. Yes they're not as good as they were, but I expect them to beat Armenia & Latvia still |
|
|
|
Post by hal on Oct 16, 2023 8:18:12 GMT
Yep it's likely top or third for us, a strange position to be in for sure! What's also strange is Page seems set to outlast Turkey's and Croatia's managers who started the campaign if we get the next results - it's been a really bizarre group but again it seems like we've been placed in the group of death as we normally are. Not much between the sides Latvia & Armenia have put up good fights against us, and as a top 3 we've all taken points off one another I don’t believe it’s been a group of death. If you look across most of the groups, there are teams who you wouldn’t expect to be where they actually are. Just a quick glance and the following teams have shocked me- Albania- Top and basically qualified in a group of Poland and Czech. Moldova- 9 points in a group with the 3 above and the Faroe Islands Belarus- Drew with Switzerland away last night Slovenia- Top of the table in a group with Denmark Austria- 2nd in a group with Sweden Greece- 2nd in a group with France, Netherlands and Ireland. The nations league was slaughtered by many originally, but has definitely brought the “lesser nations” more competitive and minus San Marino and Gibraltar etc, there appears to be no more easy games anymore. |
|
|
|
Post by vvm on Oct 16, 2023 8:18:24 GMT
Taking nothing away from a great win i think we can consign a once great Croatian team to history,not at all certain they will win the two games they have left. If they get a few of their forwards back fit they will have more cutting edge. Yes they're not as good as they were, but I expect them to beat Armenia & Latvia still Like you say I'd expect Croatia to beat them both but we've all learnt they're no mugs. Honestly I'm not sure there really are any complete rollover teams anymore except for like San Marino and 2 or 3 around the very bottom of the seeding for the groups. Latvia were ranked 50 out of 55 it looks like and it's obvious they can play a bit. |
|
|
|
Post by eppingblue1 on Oct 16, 2023 8:19:53 GMT
Yep it's likely top or third for us, a strange position to be in for sure! What's also strange is Page seems set to outlast Turkey's and Croatia's managers who started the campaign if we get the next results - it's been a really bizarre group but again it seems like we've been placed in the group of death as we normally are. Not much between the sides Latvia & Armenia have put up good fights against us, and as a top 3 we've all taken points off one another Armenia are not out of this just yet. They beat us and they'll go to Croatia needing a win by a couple to go through in 2nd. Even for Armenia, qualification is still in their hands. The form Croatia are showing at the moment, they'll fancy their chances. Going to be a cracker in Yerevan for sure. Cant wait. Thought after Thursday it had become a dead rubber, now its the most exciting trip for years. |
|
|
|
Post by jimexotic on Oct 16, 2023 8:30:27 GMT
I was trying to explain the impact of losing a key or high level playing player has on Wales to my England supporting mates, who often scoff at my suggestion that Wales punch way above their weight given our small pool of players and lack of a professional league. A point I made going into this game was that a fully fit and firing Ramsey and Johnson improve the side by about 20% with what they can offer and without them as an option it limits us somewhat as we don't have the resources that other countries have. It's this that makes last night all the more impressive. Players that can't get starts/games at the likes of Bournemouth, Nottingham Forest and Birmingham City all stepping up and showing that we can adapt and operate at a highly competitive level even when missing seemingly, in Ramsey's case without doubt, key players.
|
|
|
|
Post by morg on Oct 16, 2023 8:33:24 GMT
Yep it's likely top or third for us, a strange position to be in for sure! What's also strange is Page seems set to outlast Turkey's and Croatia's managers who started the campaign if we get the next results - it's been a really bizarre group but again it seems like we've been placed in the group of death as we normally are. Not much between the sides Latvia & Armenia have put up good fights against us, and as a top 3 we've all taken points off one another Armenia are not out of this just yet. They beat us and they'll go to Croatia needing a win by a couple to go through in 2nd. Even for Armenia, qualification is still in their hands. The form Croatia are showing at the moment, they'll fancy their chances. Going to be a cracker in Yerevan for sure. Cant wait. Thought after Thursday it had become a dead rubber, now its the most exciting trip for years. Think this suits us. |
|
|
|
Post by morg on Oct 16, 2023 8:46:47 GMT
I was trying to explain the impact of losing a key or high level playing player has on Wales to my England supporting mates, who often scoff at my suggestion that Wales punch way above their weight given our small pool of players and lack of a professional league. A point I made going into this game was that a fully fit and firing Ramsey and Johnson improve the side by about 20% with what they can offer and without them as an option it limits us somewhat as we don't have the resources that other countries have. It's this that makes last night all the more impressive. Players that can't get starts/games at the likes of Bournemouth, Nottingham Forest and Birmingham City all stepping up and showing that we can adapt and operate at a highly competitive level even when missing seemingly, in Ramsey's case without doubt, key players. We had two current premier League starters in that team. (and even that might be a stretch in the case of Harry). Some are not even in match day squads. We beat a team ranked 6th in the world, who in the last year lost the Nation's League on penalties and finished third in the World Cup. We've lost 2 of our greatest all time players in the last 12 months and we're without another last night. Our central midfield was staffed by a 23 yr old championship player and a 19 yr old championship reserve. Their 3 had 355 caps between them. I'd say that's quite punchy  |
|
|
|
Post by melynwy on Oct 16, 2023 8:56:19 GMT
Last night feels massive at the moment. It feels like a turning point. Of course that all depends on what happens next! I still have next to no faith in Page in footballing terms, but neither did I have much faith in Coleman (although he had Osian Roberts there to help him). Page, like Coleman, works on emotion. And if that's what your working on, if the excitement and togetherness in the squad is not 100% there, there is nothing to go on and you can fail spectacularly. Last night was another level to what we've seen under Page at any point, and I dare say the media stuff leading up to it was a major factor. The players were obviously pissed off, and they were playing for Page. Page himself was close to tears during the anthem and in the post match interview. Perhaps last night is when this squad really bonded and became Page's team. It was a young team, and his team - Ward and Davies were the only ones from the Euro 16 squad. In an ideal world I'd rather see us with a great footballing mind as our coach, but in the absence of that, an emotionally driven and bonded squad and manager can also achieve great things, as Coleman showed. It's not a great long term plan, and is likely to fall flat when the squad goes through a transition period - but just maybe, hopefully, last night signalled the end of our transition period. We weren't longing for Bale and Allen. Ramsey's absence wasn't in the back our minds all through the game, and the team were playing for each other and for the manager. And although it's often (fairly) used as a stick to beat Page with, as it was with Coleman, loyalty is a big part of it. It's fine margins of course. Fail to beat Armenia and this post looks ridiculous. Beat Armenia and Turkey and last night becomes symbolic. Very happy for this post to be slated as a massive over-reaction... I'm also at this moment of the mind that Jordan James is Sergio Busquets himself  |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 16, 2023 9:01:26 GMT
I was trying to explain the impact of losing a key or high level playing player has on Wales to my England supporting mates, who often scoff at my suggestion that Wales punch way above their weight given our small pool of players and lack of a professional league. A point I made going into this game was that a fully fit and firing Ramsey and Johnson improve the side by about 20% with what they can offer and without them as an option it limits us somewhat as we don't have the resources that other countries have. It's this that makes last night all the more impressive. Players that can't get starts/games at the likes of Bournemouth, Nottingham Forest and Birmingham City all stepping up and showing that we can adapt and operate at a highly competitive level even when missing seemingly, in Ramsey's case without doubt, key players. The red shirt is a like a superhero cape or something. So many of our players play above themselves when they play for us. The fans play a big part in that too! |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 16, 2023 9:07:24 GMT
Agree melynwyFirst time we've beaten a top side under Page last night, so it definitely is/can be a turning point. That's what we've been waiting for under him that we hadn't seen yet It's clear he's a very emotionally driven manager and I personally love seeing someone as passionate as a fan managing the team. Was very moving to see his response to the anthem & performance and say what you want about him, the man loves Cymru and he gets it There's been a lot of clamour for a cold-blooded European tactician to take the reigns from a few in our fanbase. But if you hire someone like that you don't get the highs of moments like last night under a truly passionate Welsh manager, and nights like last night are what I love about this national team and are what sets us apart from other national teams imo |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 16, 2023 9:10:12 GMT
Yep it's likely top or third for us, a strange position to be in for sure! What's also strange is Page seems set to outlast Turkey's and Croatia's managers who started the campaign if we get the next results - it's been a really bizarre group but again it seems like we've been placed in the group of death as we normally are. Not much between the sides Latvia & Armenia have put up good fights against us, and as a top 3 we've all taken points off one another I don’t believe it’s been a group of death. If you look across most of the groups, there are teams who you wouldn’t expect to be where they actually are. Just a quick glance and the following teams have shocked me- Albania- Top and basically qualified in a group of Poland and Czech. Moldova- 9 points in a group with the 3 above and the Faroe Islands Belarus- Drew with Switzerland away last night Slovenia- Top of the table in a group with Denmark Austria- 2nd in a group with Sweden Greece- 2nd in a group with France, Netherlands and Ireland. The nations league was slaughtered by many originally, but has definitely brought the “lesser nations” more competitive and minus San Marino and Gibraltar etc, there appears to be no more easy games anymore. I don't think you'll find another group where the top 3 seeds all finish on around 16 points AND where the bottom two teams have either taken points off the top 3 or at least pushed them very close in nearly every game *Edit - Also when you look at Albania's squad you can see why they are where they are. They can basically field an XI of players in the top 5 European leagues, most of which come from Serie A |
|
|
|
Post by hal on Oct 16, 2023 10:13:41 GMT
I don’t believe it’s been a group of death. If you look across most of the groups, there are teams who you wouldn’t expect to be where they actually are. Just a quick glance and the following teams have shocked me- Albania- Top and basically qualified in a group of Poland and Czech. Moldova- 9 points in a group with the 3 above and the Faroe Islands Belarus- Drew with Switzerland away last night Slovenia- Top of the table in a group with Denmark Austria- 2nd in a group with Sweden Greece- 2nd in a group with France, Netherlands and Ireland. The nations league was slaughtered by many originally, but has definitely brought the “lesser nations” more competitive and minus San Marino and Gibraltar etc, there appears to be no more easy games anymore. I don't think you'll find another group where the top 3 seeds all finish on around 16 points AND where the bottom two teams have either taken points off the top 3 or at least pushed them very close in nearly every game Fair point. Maybe I’m just looking at in on paper and would say that other groups are harder on paper. Regardless, if, and it’s still a big if, make it through this group, it’s a remarkable achievement for such a small country and I would say bigger than qualifying for both the Euros first time around and WC, taking into the factors of no Bale and in a complete transition period. |
|
|
|
Post by morg on Oct 16, 2023 11:15:53 GMT
Feasible that could have been 3 or 4 nil last night. Ifs and buts I know but puts the level of performance into context. Game passes you by but I never felt that we were remotely under the cosh until the last 20 and even then it wasn't as pressurised as some of the rear guard actions we've had in the past.
Proper toe to toe effort with a tier 1 team and we deserved to win it through two very well taken goals and professional performances all over the pitch.
|
|
|
|
Post by conwy10 on Oct 16, 2023 11:44:13 GMT
Agree melynwyFirst time we've beaten a top side under Page last night, so it definitely is/can be a turning point. That's what we've been waiting for under him that we hadn't seen yet It's clear he's a very emotionally driven manager and I personally love seeing someone as passionate as a fan managing the team. Was very moving to see his response to the anthem & performance and say what you want about him, the man loves Cymru and he gets it There's been a lot of clamour for a cold-blooded European tactician to take the reigns from a few in our fanbase. But if you hire someone like that you don't get the highs of moments like last night under a truly passionate Welsh manager, and nights like last night are what I love about this national team and are what sets us apart from other national teams imo The only issue with that though is you need more from the manager than passion alone. All of us in here would show that emotion, but that doesn't qualify us to be in that role. If he's a motivator not a tactician that's fine, but we need him to get that extra something out of the lads every time as that's all he really brings to the table. At the end of the day it's all about results. If we get to the Euros he's achieved his goal. If we exit the Euros without doing anything it's debatable if he's done his job as there won't be expectations on him. If we beat Armenia, put up a heroic effort against Turkey but lose that Armenia result can't and won't be forgotten. Hate to hold that against him but he needs to qualify to right the wrong of that result in my mind, and others who I've chatted with. |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Oct 16, 2023 12:10:19 GMT
we lost 3 points to Armenia - expected to win yes but
We took 4 points from Croatia which were unexpected yes? So pointless going on about Armenia 3 points lost if you fail to mention the 4 we took off the tops seeds.
This group is mental they are all taking points off each other
our group is the only group where the bottom seed have won a game
|
|
|
|
Post by eppingblue1 on Oct 16, 2023 12:12:06 GMT
I don’t believe it’s been a group of death. If you look across most of the groups, there are teams who you wouldn’t expect to be where they actually are. Just a quick glance and the following teams have shocked me- Albania- Top and basically qualified in a group of Poland and Czech. Moldova- 9 points in a group with the 3 above and the Faroe Islands Belarus- Drew with Switzerland away last night Slovenia- Top of the table in a group with Denmark Austria- 2nd in a group with Sweden Greece- 2nd in a group with France, Netherlands and Ireland. The nations league was slaughtered by many originally, but has definitely brought the “lesser nations” more competitive and minus San Marino and Gibraltar etc, there appears to be no more easy games anymore. I don't think you'll find another group where the top 3 seeds all finish on around 16 points AND where the bottom two teams have either taken points off the top 3 or at least pushed them very close in nearly every game *Edit - Also when you look at Albania's squad you can see why they are where they are. They can basically field an XI of players in the top 5 European leagues, most of which come from Serie A Actually Turkey came out of pot 4. Armenia came out of 3 but I get the point. |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 16, 2023 12:42:15 GMT
Agree melynwyFirst time we've beaten a top side under Page last night, so it definitely is/can be a turning point. That's what we've been waiting for under him that we hadn't seen yet It's clear he's a very emotionally driven manager and I personally love seeing someone as passionate as a fan managing the team. Was very moving to see his response to the anthem & performance and say what you want about him, the man loves Cymru and he gets it There's been a lot of clamour for a cold-blooded European tactician to take the reigns from a few in our fanbase. But if you hire someone like that you don't get the highs of moments like last night under a truly passionate Welsh manager, and nights like last night are what I love about this national team and are what sets us apart from other national teams imo The only issue with that though is you need more from the manager than passion alone. All of us in here would show that emotion, but that doesn't qualify us to be in that role. If he's a motivator not a tactician that's fine, but we need him to get that extra something out of the lads every time as that's all he really brings to the table. At the end of the day it's all about results. If we get to the Euros he's achieved his goal. If we exit the Euros without doing anything it's debatable if he's done his job as there won't be expectations on him. If we beat Armenia, put up a heroic effort against Turkey but lose that Armenia result can't and won't be forgotten. Hate to hold that against him but he needs to qualify to right the wrong of that result in my mind, and others who I've chatted with. Agree but the positive thing is that our hardest game was last night and we came through. Not a guarantee we will win the next two ofc, however it does tip things in our favour |
|
|
|
Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 16, 2023 14:18:07 GMT
I make last night's performance and result as at least on a par with our best ever qualifying match victories. Better performance than the win over Belgium or the one over Germany back in the day, both of which were somewhat lucky, backs to the wall victories.
Given the quality of opposition I would say last night tops the win over Hungary. Perhaps the most similar success was the 2-1 win over Italy, which was also a fully merited victory. On that occasion Gabbidon really came of age. Last night it was Jordan James. Personally, I think last night was the GQOAT.
|
|
|
|
Post by hooky on Oct 16, 2023 15:08:24 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by iantov on Oct 16, 2023 17:16:20 GMT
I still have this nagging thought in the back of my mind that we can occasionally be a little bit more positive in the middle third sometimes and certainly more clinical at other times in the final third.
A few opportunities to play a simple forward pass were ignored and went backward to a defender and there were a couple of instances where passes didn't quite hit the mark in very threatening positions and under no real pressure at the sharp end. Also one or two openings on the break where the wrong option was taken with the likes of Brooks free on the flank.
I don't expect perfection and perhaps picky on my part, I am certainly not taking anything away from the result for sure but, no harm in striving for cold-blooded, professional, clinical decision-making and application more regularly as it may become a critical requirement in future games.
|
|
|
|
Post by conwy10 on Oct 16, 2023 17:59:03 GMT
we lost 3 points to Armenia - expected to win yes but We took 4 points from Croatia which were unexpected yes? So pointless going on about Armenia 3 points lost if you fail to mention the 4 we took off the tops seeds. This group is mental they are all taking points off each other our group is the only group where the bottom seed have won a game Like I said in the other thread that Armenia loss could hurt us. If they've just got our number as a nation and we lose to them again we're sitting out the Euros. I don't really care about the other groups to be honest, the bottom seeds were only Latvia. Under Toshack that was still a 6 pointer. At the end of the day we either qualify or we dont. The campaign is a success or it isnt. Page has failed or succeeded. The what ifs go out of the window and the result is finalised. Might be harsh from my end but if we take 4 points off Croatia and none off Armenia it has been a failure of a campaign. Luckily we could still have the lifeline of a Playoff. Again obviously if we succeed and win that I'll forget about Armenia. |
|
|
|
Post by conwy10 on Oct 16, 2023 18:01:27 GMT
The only issue with that though is you need more from the manager than passion alone. All of us in here would show that emotion, but that doesn't qualify us to be in that role. If he's a motivator not a tactician that's fine, but we need him to get that extra something out of the lads every time as that's all he really brings to the table. At the end of the day it's all about results. If we get to the Euros he's achieved his goal. If we exit the Euros without doing anything it's debatable if he's done his job as there won't be expectations on him. If we beat Armenia, put up a heroic effort against Turkey but lose that Armenia result can't and won't be forgotten. Hate to hold that against him but he needs to qualify to right the wrong of that result in my mind, and others who I've chatted with. Agree but the positive thing is that our hardest game was last night and we came through. Not a guarantee we will win the next two ofc, however it does tip things in our favour I can see both the others being really difficult. This campaign could go either way. |
|
|
|
Post by hooky on Oct 16, 2023 18:01:35 GMT
Conor definitely turns back or sideways more than he used to. Gunter is somehow part of the coaching setup, hopefully he does not influence Neco in the way he plays and I assume he knows he himself was too limited to attack the way Neco does. However, Conor definitely looked forward when he started playing for Wales to good effect so its a bit disappointing that he has become far more conservative, especially when we have 5 at the back and 2 genuine holding midfield players!
|
|
