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Post by hooky on Nov 18, 2023 17:15:48 GMT
There is no longer any point to Connor if we have an alternative. We have 2 new fullbacks in the squad - lets see if they can provide an upgrade. Ever since he got seriously ill he has gone downhill. I have no idea what has gone wrong but he does little positive. Neco is poor but at least he can at times be productive going forward
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 17:17:58 GMT
I'm not sure how describing Connor as very poor is being generous...
Yes he had a very poor game, AND there was a tactical problem with both wing backs being pinned back. Page did nothing to address this issue which was there from the off. This is where the manager earns his crust but and time again Page fails to make in game adaptations to address problems.
I thought Page had turned a corner with the Croatia match, but his ineptness was there again for all to see.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 17:20:52 GMT
Croatia already two up. We've blown it. I have no confidence for the playoffs.
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 18, 2023 17:24:14 GMT
You get a lot of funny results in Euro qualifying. It's the home defeat to these that's really cost us, had we won that one we'd be all but qualified now.
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Post by janglingjack on Nov 18, 2023 17:25:21 GMT
both crotai goals were from simple cut backs,so simple when we are in control of the ball,you know that thing that defines the game of footbll
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 18, 2023 17:27:44 GMT
both crotai goals were from simple cut backs,so simple when we are in control of the ball,you know that thing that defines the game of footbll This reads a little loose, so loose that I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say but we beat Croatia and we shouldn't forget that. |
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Post by hooky on Nov 18, 2023 17:28:35 GMT
A reminder - this is the quality of the team we messed up against again tonight:
Armenia national football team
FIFA ranking
Current 95 (26 October 2023)
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 17:31:49 GMT
You get a lot of funny results in Euro qualifying. It's the home defeat to these that's really cost us, had we won that one we'd be all but qualified now. The painful truth though is that we've been outclassed in both games and have been lucky to get a point let alone 6. The way they patiently build attacks with sharp 5 yard passes would have been a joy to behold had it come from us. We looked like a lower league outfit today and we were frankly embarrassing. |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 17:36:31 GMT
I'm not sure how describing Connor as very poor is being generous... Yes he had a very poor game, AND there was a tactical problem with both wing backs being pinned back. Page did nothing to address this issue which was there from the off. This is where the manager earns his crust but and time again Page fails to make in game adaptations to address problems. I thought Page had turned a corner with the Croatia match, but his ineptness was there again for all to see. Not being funny, but he's a wing back, he plays on the very side of the pitch, how could that have been changed? All I can think is asking Brooks to play wider in behind them, but that would leave Moore even more isolated. Having 3 at the back we give up a lot in attack anyway. The wingback need to go man to man and win their battles rather than sacrificing attackers to help them. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 17:39:31 GMT
You go where the space is, so Connor and Neco could have come inside and tried to link play in central areas. These are the sort of puzzles managers have to solve. Page doesn't.
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 17:40:19 GMT
both crotai goals were from simple cut backs,so simple when we are in control of the ball,you know that thing that defines the game of footbll Why cut back the ball when you can simply dribble it into the advertising boards? |
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Post by fiveattheback on Nov 18, 2023 17:44:10 GMT
I'd love it if someone could explain to me what we're trying to do in attack and what kind of goal we're trying to score
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 17:49:19 GMT
I'd love it if someone could explain to me what we're trying to do in attack and what kind of goal we're trying to score Pre match press conference. One of the new coaches are responsible and its really made a difference. Everyone is impressed with the changes. Aged well. |
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Post by CymruFach on Nov 18, 2023 17:52:38 GMT
No passion
No urgency
No composure
Far too untidy
Tactically outthought
Wingbacks marked out of game by Armenian double marking, but we persisted with the tactic all game!
Gave the ball away all game.
Turned down opportunities to shoot.
This is our level now
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 18, 2023 18:20:07 GMT
Sluggish performance from the start. Too many poor passes and a lack of energy overall.
Some might say we were fortunate to come away with a point in the end. Looks like the play-offs on the horizon. Hope we play better against the Turks.
No Bale to 'bale' us out now!!
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Post by hal on Nov 18, 2023 18:44:04 GMT
I'm not sure how describing Connor as very poor is being generous... Yes he had a very poor game, AND there was a tactical problem with both wing backs being pinned back. Page did nothing to address this issue which was there from the off. This is where the manager earns his crust but and time again Page fails to make in game adaptations to address problems. I thought Page had turned a corner with the Croatia match, but his ineptness was there again for all to see. Whilst I am not saying Neco had a good game, he definitely “offered” a lot more than Connor. Roberts has been extremely, extremely poor in a Welsh shirt for a considerable amount of time. |
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Post by Belle Vue on Nov 18, 2023 18:47:55 GMT
Could still finish 4th
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Post by hal on Nov 18, 2023 18:48:53 GMT
I’ve been having a long think about loyalty in the national team set up. You can’t win either way-
You pick teams based on club selection and match fitness- players potentially less motivated to play when they start for Wales.
You pick players based on previous national games- You get players playing who have not played since the previous international window and are extremely out of sync and not match fit.
One extra point I will add is Brennan. He really is making me struggle to believe he WANTS to play for Wales. I watched the game vs Wolves last week and I thought he was phenomenal, the talent is clearly there. But once again tonight he did not look interested at all. Really disappointing and poor.
We just have to hope we can somehow use the encouragement of the WC playoffs and somehow pick up two victories. Page won’t leave before then, so we will have to standby until then. Problem we have in the future is that Mooney is already speaking about costs etc and wanting to move to Millenium for more money, FAW are not going to fork out on a big game national manager. Will probably end up with Matty Jones
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 18:50:39 GMT
No passion No urgency No composure Far too untidy Tactically outthought Wingbacks marked out of game by Armenian double marking, but we persisted with the tactic all game! Gave the ball away all game. Turned down opportunities to shoot. This is our level now I feel that's us in general. From Page speaking, to the players it's like the personality is vacuumed from the room. It's very overly professional, don't say anything you shouldn't, monotone, all the time in the world and just boring. Bale was a larger than life character and was always dragging controversy with Madrid or was the centre of attention. Now its just soulless. |
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Post by redwallnews on Nov 18, 2023 18:53:14 GMT
I’ve been having a long think about loyalty in the national team set up. You can’t win either way- You pick teams based on club selection and match fitness- players potentially less motivated to play when they start for Wales. You pick players based on previous national games- You get players playing who have not played since the previous international window and are extremely out of sync and not match fit. One extra point I will add is Brennan. He really is making me struggle to believe he WANTS to play for Wales. I watched the game vs Wolves last week and I thought he was phenomenal, the talent is clearly there. But once again tonight he did not look interested at all. Really disappointing and poor. We just have to hope we can somehow use the encouragement of the WC playoffs and somehow pick up two victories. Page won’t leave before then, so we will have to standby until then. Problem we have in the future is that Mooney is already speaking about costs etc and wanting to move to Millenium for more money, FAW are not going to fork out on a big game national manager. Will probably end up with Matty Jones Glad you mentioned Brennan, agree with you 100%. He doesn't look arsed about playing for us. |
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Post by welrus on Nov 18, 2023 18:58:49 GMT
No passion No urgency No composure Far too untidy Tactically outthought Wingbacks marked out of game by Armenian double marking, but we persisted with the tactic all game! Gave the ball away all game. Turned down opportunities to shoot. This is our level now That is a fantastic summary. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Nov 18, 2023 19:14:57 GMT
I’ve been having a long think about loyalty in the national team set up. You can’t win either way- You pick teams based on club selection and match fitness- players potentially less motivated to play when they start for Wales. You pick players based on previous national games- You get players playing who have not played since the previous international window and are extremely out of sync and not match fit. One extra point I will add is Brennan. He really is making me struggle to believe he WANTS to play for Wales. I watched the game vs Wolves last week and I thought he was phenomenal, the talent is clearly there. But once again tonight he did not look interested at all. Really disappointing and poor. We just have to hope we can somehow use the encouragement of the WC playoffs and somehow pick up two victories. Page won’t leave before then, so we will have to standby until then. Problem we have in the future is that Mooney is already speaking about costs etc and wanting to move to Millenium for more money, FAW are not going to fork out on a big game national manager. Will probably end up with Matty Jones Glad you mentioned Brennan, agree with you 100%. He doesn't look arsed about playing for us. Guessing you missed the massive tackle he put in to try and win the ball back in the corner? Questioning players' commitment helps nobody |
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Post by redwallnews on Nov 18, 2023 19:22:07 GMT
Glad you mentioned Brennan, agree with you 100%. He doesn't look arsed about playing for us. Guessing you missed the massive tackle he put in to try and win the ball back in the corner? Questioning players' commitment helps nobody Just strolled around when he came on in my opinion. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 19:29:48 GMT
Glad you mentioned Brennan, agree with you 100%. He doesn't look arsed about playing for us. Guessing you missed the massive tackle he put in to try and win the ball back in the corner? Questioning players' commitment helps nobody That tackle was such a contrast to the rest of his output. It's just not in his DNA. Hopefully Spurs can change things for him. He'll have to improve off the ball or he won't play for them, simples. Hopefully he will then bring that to the international arena. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 19, 2023 2:47:57 GMT
You get a lot of funny results in Euro qualifying. It's the home defeat to these that's really cost us, had we won that one we'd be all but qualified now. The painful truth though is that we've been outclassed in both games and have been lucky to get a point let alone 6. The way they patiently build attacks with sharp 5 yard passes would have been a joy to behold had it come from us. We looked like a lower league outfit today and we were frankly embarrassing. In the first game we outscored them on xG and tonight we both scored 1-1 on xG. So on the balance of play we should have 4 points from these. Yes they "looked more dangerous" than us in both games. But the stats say otherwise. Not excusing two poor performances, just stating how saying we've been outclassed on both occasions is a bit imbalanced. In reality they've scored 5 goals against us from very low xG chances - very unlikely! |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 19, 2023 2:51:48 GMT
No passion No urgency No composure Far too untidy Tactically outthought Wingbacks marked out of game by Armenian double marking, but we persisted with the tactic all game! Gave the ball away all game. Turned down opportunities to shoot. This is our level now I feel that's us in general. From Page speaking, to the players it's like the personality is vacuumed from the room. It's very overly professional, don't say anything you shouldn't, monotone, all the time in the world and just boring. Bale was a larger than life character and was always dragging controversy with Madrid or was the centre of attention. Now its just soulless. "Bale was a larger than life character" - no he wasn't! 😂😂 He was the most media trained player I've ever seen. Late in his career he OCCASIONALLY steered off script when he felt comfortable doing so as captain, but for the most part he stuck to scripted answers in his interviews To state otherwise is a-historical pish in my opinion. That's nothing to do with the the actual problem and we shouldn't be distracting from the actual issues with this nonsense |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 19, 2023 3:10:33 GMT
For the record I'm not Page out. I understand the financials and will never call for a manager's head without serious consideration of all information
I do attribute tonight's poor performance mostly to the players, and felt the team on the pitch was capable of a lot more. They showed that against Croatia. There's no reason the same players couldn't play with that same intensity and desire in a must win game
Now here's where I do criticise Page. You can't pick the same team and the same formation in every game unless you're one of the top teams imo. Pep can do it. Klopp can do it. And few others can. We're Wales, we have to be clever, we have to adapt, and we have to play the best team available to beat the team in front of us. Tonight we didn't get that. Tonight we got the best available team to beat Croatia
Croatia have their style, slow passing working their way up the pitch in a 4-3-3. Perfect for us to play a back 3 with mobile 10s to soak it up and hit them on the break. That's what we did and it worked a treat. So Page picks the same lineup for momentum's sake. I understand this logic, a lot of fans called for it, but here's the issue...
Armenia also play 5-4-1/3-4-3. They're not Croatia. They won't dominate the game, they won't leave 6 players up the pitch. When we play 3-4-3 we're going man for man against them. We know this about them because we played against them already. Page should have recognised this, and recognised that our formation matches up evenly against theirs. There's no advantage to be gained there like Croatia. Maybe the plan was match up and do it better than them? It failed if so
In hindsight I think we should have gone 4-2-3-1 aggressive against them. A tactician would have spotted that this would stop their back 3 playing and would have given us more control over the game. Page was spooked by the fact we played that formation and lost to them in the summer. When in reality the addition of JJ would have changed things greatly. Being more proactive would have helped. Page, despite stating we wanted to get them back for the summer, was actually scared of what they could do, which played into their hands
Ultimately it's hard to suggest alternative lineups when the subs were so poor. However I do think this is contextual to a degree. I don't feel playing something like
Ward
Roberts-Mepham-Rodon-Davies
JJ-Ampadu
Brennan-Wilson-James
Moore
Would be a recipe for disaster. That lineup should be able to cope with Armenia much better than tonight, on paper. That being said, I think and have thought for a while that Roberts was/is poor. He was so wasteful and lacking composure tonight. Huggins in for him to see how he responds imo, too comfortable in his position knowing he will always get picked. Let's introduce a bit of jeopardy to performances and see the impact
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Post by aberbeeg on Nov 19, 2023 6:06:31 GMT
For the record I'm not Page out. I understand the financials and will never call for a manager's head without serious consideration of all information I do attribute tonight's poor performance mostly to the players, and felt the team on the pitch was capable of a lot more. They showed that against Croatia. There's no reason the same players couldn't play with that same intensity and desire in a must win game Now here's where I do criticise Page. You can't pick the same team and the same formation in every game unless you're one of the top teams imo. Pep can do it. Klopp can do it. And few others can. We're Wales, we have to be clever, we have to adapt, and we have to play the best team available to beat the team in front of us. Tonight we didn't get that. Tonight we got the best available team to beat Croatia Croatia have their style, slow passing working their way up the pitch in a 4-3-3. Perfect for us to play a back 3 with mobile 10s to soak it up and hit them on the break. That's what we did and it worked a treat. So Page picks the same lineup for momentum's sake. I understand this logic, a lot of fans called for it, but here's the issue... Armenia also play 5-4-1/3-4-3. They're not Croatia. They won't dominate the game, they won't leave 6 players up the pitch. When we play 3-4-3 we're going man for man against them. We know this about them because we played against them already. Page should have recognised this, and recognised that our formation matches up evenly against theirs. There's no advantage to be gained there like Croatia. Maybe the plan was match up and do it better than them? It failed if so In hindsight I think we should have gone 4-2-3-1 aggressive against them. A tactician would have spotted that this would stop their back 3 playing and would have given us more control over the game. Page was spooked by the fact we played that formation and lost to them in the summer. When in reality the addition of JJ would have changed things greatly. Being more proactive would have helped. Page, despite stating we wanted to get them back for the summer, was actually scared of what they could do, which played into their hands Ultimately it's hard to suggest alternative lineups when the subs were so poor. However I do think this is contextual to a degree. I don't feel playing something like Ward Roberts-Mepham-Rodon-Davies JJ-Ampadu Brennan-Wilson-James Moore Would be a recipe for disaster. That lineup should be able to cope with Armenia much better than tonight, on paper. That being said, I think and have thought for a while that Roberts was/is poor. He was so wasteful and lacking composure tonight. Huggins in for him to see how he responds imo, too comfortable in his position knowing he will always get picked. Let's introduce a bit of jeopardy to performances and see the impact So to summarise your points…..Page got his tactics wrong ( again) Page was too conservative ( again) . Sounds such a familiar and reoccurring theme. It’s unfortunately ended up costing us qualification.page simply isn’t good enough what price do the FAW put on that ? |
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Post by melynwy on Nov 19, 2023 8:00:50 GMT
You can't pick the same team and the same formation in every game unless you're one of the top teams imo. Pep can do it. Klopp can do it. And few others can. Great post all round, and I fully agree with you. This point in particular is an important one, and I'd go further and say that it's even rarer to be able to do it in international football. With a club, given enough resources, you can build a team around a system. In the international game, with a finite pool of players, you really have to adapt the system to the players, unless you're in a freakishly fortunate situation, like 2010 Spain or 1974 Netherlands etc. I have a feeling that Chris Coleman left a lot of the tactical analysis and decisions to Osian Roberts, and that Coleman himself operated more as an emotional leader/motivator (and this wasn't evident from the beginning either - there was a definite turning point with him where his press conferences went from "We're a small nation, we'll do our best" to "We're coming to here to win") I'd have no issues with Page the same approach, and I thought that after the Croatia win that the emotional bond had been cemented*, but last night showed the same problems again. We are simply not where we need to be in terms of footballing intelligence if we want to qualify regularly any more. If that's a matter of getting someone in alongside Page, then that's fine if it it's what the players want and keeps them happy. *The media hullaballoo with the FAW/Page played a big part in this I think, and it's very possible that it galvanised the squad for win. In that regard, while I agree that we got the draw against Croatia the first time round despite Page, I actually think that maybe we got the win because of him! |
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Post by bobbyghoul on Nov 19, 2023 8:16:23 GMT
The painful truth though is that we've been outclassed in both games and have been lucky to get a point let alone 6. The way they patiently build attacks with sharp 5 yard passes would have been a joy to behold had it come from us. We looked like a lower league outfit today and we were frankly embarrassing. In the first game we outscored them on xG and tonight we both scored 1-1 on xG. So on the balance of play we should have 4 points from these. Yes they "looked more dangerous" than us in both games. But the stats say otherwise. Not excusing two poor performances, just stating how saying we've been outclassed on both occasions is a bit imbalanced. In reality they've scored 5 goals against us from very low xG chances - very unlikely! Just goes to show that xG is sometimes not the best metric to hang your argument on. |
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