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Post by quetzal on Nov 18, 2023 16:32:24 GMT
I dont think we really changed how we were attempting to play since the Croatia game. Two completely different games, where the same progression of the ball was never going to work. The continued long balls forward hoping for a knockdown or control from Moore were clearly not working and yet we persist for 90 minutes playing the same way. With 25 to go the only changes in a must win game were Brooks and Wilson off for Johnson and James. Like for like. No real changes of note untill Roberts came off with less than 10 to go and James half filled in at LWB. Page isn't up to the task and this continued oh get behind the boys and give him time is only dragging us further away from being a devent side. He has to walk before the playoff games surely. m This is the same team everyone called for and the same subs everyone also called for. Johnson came in at half time, we needed a goal so keeping kieffer up to was crucial he’s our best chance at a goal. But tactically what would you have changed? Who came in and did a Better job than those players that started. We looked worse after the subs if anything. Perhaps you can suggest a new better formation? I thought Broadhead for Kieffer was the change around 65 mins tbh. Kieffer looked off it |
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Post by ddirpytnop on Nov 18, 2023 16:32:35 GMT
Not many positives to take out of that. Brooks, Moore, Neco have barely played since the last window and looked dreadfully short of match practice. Just because it worked a month ago doesnt mean it's going to keep working. And Connor Roberts? Dear me! No pace, no poise, no presence - no point. He is a pale shadow of the player he once was and needs to be replaced. If we want someone whose only purpose is to hurl the ball into the box, we might as well replace him with a rugby union hooker. Armenia have some decent attacking talent. But we should be ripping them apart at the back.
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Post by njdragon on Nov 18, 2023 16:32:47 GMT
We started the second half with a much higher press, and arguably we were worse for it. There was a long period from around 60 to 80 minutes where we just seemed to do nothing. Hard pressing also brings about its own compromises, both in terms of creating space for the opposition to exploit and i. tiring out our own players. Had the individuals played well, that game was there for the taking without playing a hard press. I’m far from happy with the performance, but I can’t see how it was particularly Page’s fault. The game was full of individual errors and poor decisions that are not evident in every game we play. The wayward passing in particular, though to me that suggests a poor pitch as I said. You make some perfectly valid points, and the players were poor in execution for sure. But at no stage was there anything resembling a Plan B. Yes there are risks with a high press, but the absence of a high press clearly wasn't working. There was no sense of urgency or tempo at any stage, and the manager has to take responsibility for that. Surely our plan b was bring on the likes of Johnson and James? They were poor |
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Post by pclaude on Nov 18, 2023 16:33:22 GMT
We are not going to Germany Page go back to your level of third division football. Croatia was obviously in spite of you. You bring us down to Northern Ireland's level Sorry - its the performances even more than the results. The top 2 coaches are central defenders and our defence look like a bunch of clowns in a circus. He is a passionate guy but he should look for another career as he has not got the brain to be a coach. We look like a bunch of strangers. Really had enough of being outplayers by teams well below us in the rankings who play mostly in their own domestic league. That is playing below your level. Don't even feel angry anymore - its like wasting 2 hours of your life watching another garbage Rob Page performance By the way can Dasilva replace Roberts? He is an absolute liability now Depends on the draw. We have first game home. And if the 2nd one is home we might do it. Two pen shoot out wins or something In the words of Rocco Lampone, difficult, not impossible. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 18, 2023 16:34:12 GMT
m This is the same team everyone called for and the same subs everyone also called for. Johnson came in at half time, we needed a goal so keeping kieffer up to was crucial he’s our best chance at a goal. But tactically what would you have changed? Who came in and did a Better job than those players that started. We looked worse after the subs if anything. Perhaps you can suggest a new better formation? I thought Broadhead for Kieffer was the change around 65 mins tbh. Kieffer looked off it Yeh maybe but in a must win would you take off you best and only striker, with the pace of Johnson and James they should have been putting it on kieffers head. They were dreadful when they came on. |
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Post by pclaude on Nov 18, 2023 16:35:28 GMT
m This is the same team everyone called for and the same subs everyone also called for. Johnson came in at half time, we needed a goal so keeping kieffer up to was crucial he’s our best chance at a goal. But tactically what would you have changed? Who came in and did a Better job than those players that started. We looked worse after the subs if anything. Perhaps you can suggest a new better formation? I thought Broadhead for Kieffer was the change around 65 mins tbh. Kieffer looked off it Bang on. The change when Broadhead came on was the oddest of all I thought. It wasnt the time to make Dan James a wing back. Brennan Johnson is a real worry too. He is awful for us. |
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Post by ddirpytnop on Nov 18, 2023 16:35:44 GMT
m This is the same team everyone called for and the same subs everyone also called for. Johnson came in at half time, we needed a goal so keeping kieffer up to was crucial he’s our best chance at a goal. But tactically what would you have changed? Who came in and did a Better job than those players that started. We looked worse after the subs if anything. Perhaps you can suggest a new better formation? I thought Broadhead for Kieffer was the change around 65 mins tbh. Kieffer looked off it Absolutely. And Brooks should have been off at half time. That would given us another sub option. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 18, 2023 16:37:27 GMT
Really disappointed with that. We didn't look like we had any intensity or desire to win the game. Chalk and cheese from Croatia - what changed? Was it that the manager wasn't as fired up as last time with his back against the wall? Out our hands in a winnable game. Very disappointing We beat Croatia despite Page Look at our defensive shape again - inability to get in position or anticipate. These players aren't as bad for their clubs When we can beaten in the knock outs Page simply has to go. Its not only poor but its boring watching Wales nowadays. Brennan looks like a non league player playing for us somehow! We have little shape / strategy in attack or midfield Poland vs Wales playoff. I wonder who wins that? Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Nov 18, 2023 16:39:07 GMT
You're ignoring the complete absence of pressing from start to finish. How do you excuse that? Especially given that they did it to us. Were you pleased with the effort shown? What made it worse is that it got worse as the game unfolded. You would have thought that we were hanging on for the draw. Only one team wanted to win it, and that was Armenia. We started the second half with a much higher press, and arguably we were worse for it. There was a long period from around 60 to 80 minutes where we just seemed to do nothing. Hard pressing also brings about its own compromises, both in terms of creating space for the opposition to exploit and i. tiring out our own players. Had the individuals played well, that game was there for the taking without playing a hard press. I’m far from happy with the performance, but I can’t see how it was particularly Page’s fault. The game was full of individual errors and poor decisions that are not evident in every game we play. The wayward passing in particular, though to me that suggests a poor pitch as I said. Poor pitch? Ffs they created chance after chance and will be devastated they didn’t beat us. The pitch must have turned Armenia into Brazil. |
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Post by zserty on Nov 18, 2023 16:39:26 GMT
I dont think we really changed how we were attempting to play since the Croatia game. Two completely different games, where the same progression of the ball was never going to work. The continued long balls forward hoping for a knockdown or control from Moore were clearly not working and yet we persist for 90 minutes playing the same way. With 25 to go the only changes in a must win game were Brooks and Wilson off for Johnson and James. Like for like. No real changes of note untill Roberts came off with less than 10 to go and James half filled in at LWB. Page isn't up to the task and this continued oh get behind the boys and give him time is only dragging us further away from being a devent side. He has to walk before the playoff games surely. m This is the same team everyone called for and the same subs everyone also called for. Johnson came in at half time, we needed a goal so keeping kieffer up to was crucial he’s our best chance at a goal. But tactically what would you have changed? Who came in and did a Better job than those players that started. We looked worse after the subs if anything. Perhaps you can suggest a new better formation? I do think it was more or less the right line up, however the way we approached the game was the issue. I'd maybe have changed Wilson for James out of the starting XI. My main issue was with the way we were playing, we seemed content to let Armenia control the ball for large spells and when they pressed we reverted into some pretty aimless balls of which none stuck. Our midfield two often seemed a bit overrun and there was a massive disconnected between them and the forward three. Vs Croatia the sitting in and breaking worked much better as they committed more forward and that left Moore 1v1 with Brooks and Wilson an abundance of space. Going to have make some dinner now, maybe i will see a better end product inan hour or so. |
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Post by janglingjack on Nov 18, 2023 16:40:53 GMT
Fact is they were much better on the ball than us,pretty obvious really
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 16:40:55 GMT
We beat Croatia despite Page Look at our defensive shape again - inability to get in position or anticipate. These players aren't as bad for their clubs When we can beaten in the knock outs Page simply has to go. Its not only poor but its boring watching Wales nowadays. Brennan looks like a non league player playing for us somehow! We have little shape / strategy in attack or midfield Poland vs Wales playoff. I wonder who wins that? Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. The Armenian manager would be an improvement for a start. Outsmarted Page home and away. |
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Post by morg on Nov 18, 2023 16:40:57 GMT
I thought Broadhead for Kieffer was the change around 65 mins tbh. Kieffer looked off it Absolutely. And Brooks should have been off at half time. That would given us another sub option. Thing is with Brooks though, he's got the quality to make something happen. Played the pass of the game which led to a great chance and also had a decent effort. Would personally have liked to see Dan J on for Connor as the first substitution. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 18, 2023 16:41:14 GMT
We beat Croatia despite Page Look at our defensive shape again - inability to get in position or anticipate. These players aren't as bad for their clubs When we can beaten in the knock outs Page simply has to go. Its not only poor but its boring watching Wales nowadays. Brennan looks like a non league player playing for us somehow! We have little shape / strategy in attack or midfield Poland vs Wales playoff. I wonder who wins that? Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. I tell you who’ll the faw will bring in … matty jones. That’s our level I’m afraid. I get pulled apart on here for backing page but there’s no viable alternatives. We ain’t getting a manager at the top of their game, we never have and or never will. My vote would be Osian we he’s untested at managerial level and doesn’t have the experience of even page. |
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Post by hooky on Nov 18, 2023 16:41:29 GMT
Not many positives to take out of that. Brooks, Moore, Neco have barely played since the last window and looked dreadfully short of match practice. Just because it worked a month ago doesnt mean it's going to keep working. And Connor Roberts? Dear me! No pace, no poise, no presence - no point. He is a pale shadow of the player he once was and needs to be replaced. If we want someone whose only purpose is to hurl the ball into the box, we might as well replace him with a rugby union hooker. Armenia have some decent attacking talent. But we should be ripping them apart at the back. I have no idea if he is decent but if Dasilva is at the level of our full backs and if he can play there, then I would look to swap him for Conor moving forward. He offers very little anymore. Brennan was very poor for us again but the fact we can't get anything out of him surely is a critique of our system. We were literally just pumping the ball down the flanks or straight to Moore. We don't even counter attack efficiently like we used to using the pace of James or Brennan, etc. It has to be the system / the coaching. How many times did we see a player so slow to react to loose balls, an attack against us or to a break away for us. They do not look this poor for their club teams. At the end we were unbalanced - why Broadhead? We needed someone to create. He lost the ball so many times in promising positions. It worked once against Croatia and now he keeps bringing him on - he is not international level at the moment |
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Post by hooky on Nov 18, 2023 16:42:19 GMT
I thought Broadhead for Kieffer was the change around 65 mins tbh. Kieffer looked off it Bang on. The change when Broadhead came on was the oddest of all I thought. It wasnt the time to make Dan James a wing back. Brennan Johnson is a real worry too. He is awful for us. He looks lost playing for us. Very worrying. |
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Post by morg on Nov 18, 2023 16:42:41 GMT
We beat Croatia despite Page Look at our defensive shape again - inability to get in position or anticipate. These players aren't as bad for their clubs When we can beaten in the knock outs Page simply has to go. Its not only poor but its boring watching Wales nowadays. Brennan looks like a non league player playing for us somehow! We have little shape / strategy in attack or midfield Poland vs Wales playoff. I wonder who wins that? Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. At the moment you're probably looking at Nathan Jones maybe coupled with Osian. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Nov 18, 2023 16:42:42 GMT
We beat Croatia despite Page Look at our defensive shape again - inability to get in position or anticipate. These players aren't as bad for their clubs When we can beaten in the knock outs Page simply has to go. Its not only poor but its boring watching Wales nowadays. Brennan looks like a non league player playing for us somehow! We have little shape / strategy in attack or midfield Poland vs Wales playoff. I wonder who wins that? Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. So Page stays forever!!! Cos we won’t ever find a suitable replacement. Dear me what a nonsense argument. Do you think Armenia pay mega bucks for managers? |
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Post by hooky on Nov 18, 2023 16:45:21 GMT
We beat Croatia despite Page Look at our defensive shape again - inability to get in position or anticipate. These players aren't as bad for their clubs When we can beaten in the knock outs Page simply has to go. Its not only poor but its boring watching Wales nowadays. Brennan looks like a non league player playing for us somehow! We have little shape / strategy in attack or midfield Poland vs Wales playoff. I wonder who wins that? Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. Would only get rid if we have a better replacement to your point. We can take our time and you'd hope there will be someone decent we can look at. There must be a better alternative - every match we are playing teams that look organised and know what they are doing. By contrast, we are so inconsistent. That to me comes down to the coaching |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 16:45:34 GMT
I think I was one of the most critical of the Armenia home match. To be honest I've never been so glad of a draw in my life. I also couldn't understand the it'll be fine mentality when we only needed 2 wins to qualify against the 2 teams we haven't beaten.
Armenia just have our number. Most of their players play at a low level, but fair play to them they were the better team. They looked like they wanted the win and were enjoying playing too, the team with Prem/Championship players lumping it forward whilst the Armenian League dream team were trying to break us down.
I think we've become too nice as a nation. Press conferences go well, everyone is talked up and appreciated. I like how Page was talking about the attacking coach and what a difference he's made, only for us to go our there on different books let alone different pages. Our camps always go well, everyone enjoys them, then we struggle when it comes to the games, Croatia aside.
Roberts was very poor again, I really like the lad but he's been struggling for 2 years. I think we'll be waiting for the expected Neco breakthrough until he's in his 30's. It's just too familiar that poor performances don't impact selection. I'd be happy seeing one or the other, but just to try and show that there's competition we need one of them on the bench against Turkey. I know it's a must win but we'll be getting 5/10 performances anyway. All 4 of Brooks, Wilson, Johnson and James didn't do anything spectacular. People criticising Moore but he was running the channels, holding it up, getting crosses in. It's no wonder he was knackered. Had no support and when it came off the bench his legs had gone.
It's not the end of the world as we're still competing. But it could go a lot better too.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 16:47:27 GMT
Bringing in the Armenian manager is a serious consideration. He was manager of Ukraine when they were very unlucky to lose to us in the playoffs. When you can't even rely on the Hwyl bit from a limited manager like Page then you know you're in trouble.
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 16:49:07 GMT
Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. I tell you who’ll the faw will bring in … matty jones. That’s our level I’m afraid. I get pulled apart on here for backing page but there’s no viable alternatives. We ain’t getting a manager at the top of their game, we never have and or never will. My vote would be Osian we he’s untested at managerial level and doesn’t have the experience of even page. Why not Osian Roberts? We've had Speed, Giggs, Page, hardly lots of experience except for a year or two in club football. Osian's been around the international scene which I think is more relevant. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 18, 2023 16:55:03 GMT
Roberts was very poor for sure, but this was at least partly down to the Armenian manager pushing their own wing backs on eliminating any space for either Roberts or Neco. Page's answer was what exactly? Nothing, at any stage.
Perhaps Page is too arrogant to acknowledge that he'd been bested twice by the Armenian manager and failed to consider how to respond if the Armenians were set up to frustrate us.
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 18, 2023 16:56:01 GMT
Trouble with all this "let's sack Page" rhetoric is who do we get to replace him? You got anyone in mind? Don't think we're getting Pep or Arteta. So Page stays forever!!! Cos we won’t ever find a suitable replacement. Dear me what a nonsense argument. Do you think Armenia pay mega bucks for managers? It's not an argument as such I'm just asking about names, because I rarely hear anyone mentioned, other than Osian, and now the Armenian manager seemingly. Fair enough but we could easily end up with a Gould/Toshack type appointment which would send us right back to laughing stock status where players aren't happy in the camp and don't want to play for us anymore. I don't think any of us really want that. |
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Post by hooky on Nov 18, 2023 16:56:24 GMT
I would rather have Osian than Page, as we know he understands football / tactics, which is a start.
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 18, 2023 17:01:13 GMT
I would rather have Osian than Page, as we know he understands football / tactics, which is a start. Has Osian even declared an interest in taking the job? He seems quite happy with his commentating/punditry gig on S4C at the moment. |
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Post by surge on Nov 18, 2023 17:05:23 GMT
In terms of if/when to move Page on I think we should recognise that ending his contract early will cost money which will restrict options of who can be hired next.
In terms of this result, it's bitterly disappointing. For whatever reason Armenia seem to enjoy playing against us and while they may have created a lot of chances a lot of those were half-chances or poorly executed.
And yet I still think I would have taken different options - Dan James on for Brooks or indeed starting ahead of him and maybe Sheehan on for Connor Roberts later on?
The worst part is that when we got the ball and played it in an aggressive but not wild manner we created good moments. I think there was just a bit too much desperation out there rather than controlled aggression, and not the first time i've felt that.
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2023 17:06:29 GMT
Roberts was very poor for sure, but this was at least partly down to the Armenian manager pushing their own wing backs on eliminating any space for either Roberts or Neco. Page's answer was what exactly? Nothing, at any stage. Perhaps Page is too arrogant to acknowledge that he'd been bested twice by the Armenian manager and failed to consider how to respond if the Armenians were set up to frustrate us. I don't think an excuse for being poor is they were being closed down. Surely we can expect professional footballers to perform when being marked. More so when it's by one player. I can't buy into the fact that a Premier League fullback must wait for instruction off the bench to help him deal with that situation. I'll give him that he had nothing in front of him as the front 3 were more interested at flapping at each other. Roberts has been poor for a long time. Maybe Kompany has coached all the adventure in his game out of him. |
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Post by melynwy on Nov 18, 2023 17:06:52 GMT
We started the second half with a much higher press, and arguably we were worse for it. There was a long period from around 60 to 80 minutes where we just seemed to do nothing. Hard pressing also brings about its own compromises, both in terms of creating space for the opposition to exploit and i. tiring out our own players. Had the individuals played well, that game was there for the taking without playing a hard press. I’m far from happy with the performance, but I can’t see how it was particularly Page’s fault. The game was full of individual errors and poor decisions that are not evident in every game we play. The wayward passing in particular, though to me that suggests a poor pitch as I said. Poor pitch? Ffs they created chance after chance and will be devastated they didn’t beat us. The pitch must have turned Armenia into Brazil. So you think professional footballers suddenly can’t pass the ball simply for no apparent reason? Do you not think the playing surface could have an impact on that? It was the most glaring issue of our performance - the number of times we lost the ball in open play was massive. The knock-on effect of that is that they saw a lot if the ball and got a lot of chances, as you point out. Of course they will be devastated, same as us. It was a game either side needed to win, and could have won. |
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Post by ddirpytnop on Nov 18, 2023 17:09:40 GMT
Roberts was very poor for sure, but this was at least partly down to the Armenian manager pushing their own wing backs on eliminating any space for either Roberts or Neco. Page's answer was what exactly? Nothing, at any stage. Perhaps Page is too arrogant to acknowledge that he'd been bested twice by the Armenian manager and failed to consider how to respond if the Armenians were set up to frustrate us. I think you are being very kind to Connor. Sure, if the opposition wing back is pushed on to him, it makes his job harder but he routinely gives the ball away by simply passing the ball to opposition. Not just in this game but in every game he's played over the last couple of years. He's been dropped by Burnley. We should do the same. Let's see what Huggins or Dasilva can do. |
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